Becky Garrison on Spiritual Narcissists, MAGA as Cult, and Why the Church Can’t Be Saved: My Conversations with Frank Schaeffer

Recently I’ve had the lovely experience of reconnecting with Frank Schaeffer for some chats on his podcast. We first met back around 2008 at a Killing the Buddha event in New York City when both of us were still penning works for the Christian market. As you can hear in the podcast, we’ve both moved on as spiritual seekers operating outside institutional church structures.

The show notes do an excellent job of summarizing the gist of a 2 1/2-hour-long convo …

In the first hour, we get into spiritual narcissism, not as an abstract idea but as something that shapes real communities and does real damage. We talk about MAGA as a kind of cult identity, Trump as a case study in personality-driven power, and how prosperity gospel culture helped prepare the ground for all of it. We also get into religious trauma and why, at least for me, institutional Christianity isn’t something that can be fixed from the inside. And we don’t let progressive spaces off the hook either. The same patterns show up there too, just with a different language.

In the second hour, we stop diagnosing and start asking what now. Becky talks about why she’s still hopeful despite everything, and we get into the limits of satire in a culture that already feels like parody. We talk about the collapse of celebrity-driven leadership, the exhaustion people feel with national politics, and why real change may be happening in smaller, local, less visible ways. It’s less about movements and more about relationships. Less about influence and more about staying human.

Check the show out here on your platform of choice.

Apple Podcasts

Spotify

You Tube

Frank Schaeffer’s website

It Had to be Said: Frank Schaeffer’s Substack

Continuing the Conversation

After we did this podcast, the news about Caesar Chavez broke. Other outlets have done due diligence in reporting on the details and how swiftly communities are responding to replacing the symbols honoring him to better reflect the broader moment for good. (And yes, we should ask how quickly this removal would have gone if Chavez were a member of the Epstein class.)

Here I’d like to offer a gentle reminder to those in shock about the Caesar Chavez saga … this is the tip of the iceberg. I’ve lost count of the number of people (mostly women) who told me stories involving those who were saviors when in the spotlight but spiritual narcissists in private. I’m using the word “spiritual” to describe Chavez’s impact on many such as my late parents whose work inspired them to work toward a better world.

When I hear stories of abuse involving those in the spotlight, I look for patterns. Yes, false allegations do happen but they’re rare. In my 30+ years reporting on religion, I can count on one hand the number of times I heard allegations leveled against someone in pastoral power that were later proven to be false. In these instances, one could identify some underlying cause such as a case of Munchausen Syndrome or a parasocial relationship that turned toxic once their affections were not returned. But I’ve lost track of the # of times someone tried to get justice for abuses they suffered in a church or other spiritual setting but was dismissed, shamed, mocked, and worse.

So when you hear someone speak out about abuse, don’t ask for evidence. Just listen. Don’t judge. Just listen. Keep listening. Be especially mindful when you start to hear multiple people coming forward who don’t know each other but have very similar stories. This is a major red flag that something is amiss.

While you’re listening, see what happens when you switch from calling those impacted by abuse “survivors” instead of “victims.” Along those lines, why are male children who are sexually abused called “boys” but female children who are similarly abused called “young women?” Let’s name this dynamic of predation by the powerful for what it is …”child abuse.” Even if the person is a legal adult, they are caught in a power love bombing/trauma bonding dynamic where they’ve been convinced that walking away will have disastrous professional and personal consequences

Then watch how the person being accused of said abuses responds. Odds are they’ll start doing the DARVO dance (Deny, attack, reverse offender and victim). If so, walk away. You cannot argue with someone who can only see life from their own perspective. Your soul and sanity will thank you.

Yes, we’re in the midst of a global reckoning that goes well beyond politics. Yes, I see the Epstein Class undergoing a Caligula-style collapse. (Though given our country’s treatment of crimes against women, my hunch is we’re looking at an Al Capone scenario — if you can’t get them on the major crimes, then get them on the financial ones.)

But as all this comes down, you can’t be selective by giving a pass to those whose theology and politics align with your worldview. And NO this is not a witch-hunt but rather a rising of all those voices that were told to “be nice.” Let’s drop the word “nice’ as this word is too often used to downplay cries for justice. Instead, let’s aim for “kind.”

Pro tip to any progressives (and yes I used to consider myself to be a progressive Episcopalian until I became an apophatic agnostic Anglican) … if you are critiquing the conservative/moderate evangelicals for their sexcapades as perps (or in this case enablers), please, please, please take a look at the specks in your own eyes.

Take the abuses within the Church of England that led to the Archbishop of Canterbury’s resignation (Bear this in mind as you wax over the historic installation of the first female Archbishop in the church’s history including her historic pilgrimage. Celebrate progress but not at the expense of erasing the past. Trust me, the abuses remain imprinted in the bodies of those impacted by pastoral peccadilloes.)

In a similar vein, for any progressive still supportive of ANYONE who made their mark via the US Emergent church, please know there’s a long history of both on and offline abuses within this network that includes some of your favorite icons.Think why you continue to buy their bunk instead of believing those detailing their unbiblical behaviors? (For a more detailed analysis here check out my Spiritual Narcissism Case Study: Unpacking Mars Hill Church’s Missional Madness (Parts 1–3).

It’s time now to pick your lane. Do you stand with those who chose to maintain the status quo by fiddling Nero-style as the world burns behind them? If so, enjoy the fireworks cause it’s this kinda faith is flaming out as we speak.

Or do you stand with survivors in the fight for a world led by those who can express empathy or compassion? This is where I see the real transformation happening — once we smash the false idols erected by spiritual narcissists, then we can see glomming within the broken shards glimpses of good (or god depending on your spiritual leanings.