Nibelungenlied Chat Protocols Revealed — Pt 3

In the 3rd part, we will look at Kriemhild’s remarriage, her persistent mourning of her former husband, her devious plans to lead her relatives to Hungary, and at what their journey actually looked like.

Remember that this is more of a linguistic endeavour. You can see the basic premises of this exploration in the introduction to part 1 and part 2, which I would recommend to read first.

[embed]Nibelungenlied Chat Protocols Revealed — Part The following text is essentially a collection of my chat protocols about the Nibelungenlied.medium.com

[embed]Nibelungenlied Chat Protocols Revealed — Pt 2 This is the second part of my ramblings about the Nibelungenlied in some random chat, which will cover the actions…medium.com

This time, we will have a bit of plot summary again, but we’ll also find more original passages to commentate on.

So Kriemhild mourns Siegfried’s death for 13 years until the king of the Huns, Etzel (Attila), wants to marry her.

I wonder how old she is at that point. Even if she married young, say, at 14, it took her 9 years to have a child with Siegfried and she mourned his death for 13 years … so she must have been 36 at the very least. Anyway, she initially doesn’t want to marry him and prefers to mourn Siegfried forever.

Anyway, her brothers persuade her to marry him to restore the status she lost after Siegfried’s death, and she eventually agrees. Only Hagen is pissed off at that idea because he can see what’s coming.

They marry in Vienna and have a son called Ortlieb. Then another 7 years go by.

Or 13 years? The text first mentions 7, then 13 years.

She actually didn’t want him because he was a heathen … and she’s actually pissed off by her brothers that they talked her into it.

And Etzel wanted to marry her because he was widowed himself … or, well, she was suggested to him by somebody who knew Burgund rather well.

His previous wife was kind of named like my grandmother. (Helche)

Anyway, she’s pissed off at her brothers that they talked her into a marriage with a heathen, and pissed off at Hagen because he killed Siegfried.

des willen in ir hercen | chom si vil selten abe si gedahte ich pin so riche | vnt han so groze habe daz ich minen vinden | gefvege noch ein leit des waere et ich von tronege | hagen gerne bereit

Des Willens in ihrem Herzen kam sie sehr selten ab (she hardly ever abandoned the will in her heart). Sie dachte: “Ich bin so reich (mächtig), und habe so große (Hand-)Habe, dass ich meinen Feinden noch ein Leid zufüge. Dessen (dazu) wäre ich für Hagen von Tronje gerne bereit.”

They constructed a lot of adverbials with the genitive in Middle High German. That must be part of the reason why Bildungsbürger in modern times seem to think using genitive objects sounds intelligent.

Kriemhilde is seeking revenge.

nach den getriwen iamert | diche daz herce min di mir da leide taten | moehte ich pi den sin so wuerde wol errochen | mines vrivndes lip des ich chvme erbeite | sprach daz ecelen wip

Nach dem Getreuen jammert dicke (oft) das Herze mein. Die mir da Leid antaten, ich möchte bei denen sein. So würde wohl gerächt meines Freundes Leib, dessen erbitte ich kaum (that means “I hardly expect that” here)”, sprach das Weib Etzels.

“dicke (oft)” Crebro?

In modern German, dick means thick or fat … but it can also mean often.

Yeah, creber/crebro is a good parallel.

Kriemhild was very well accepted at the Hungarian court. All the people were loyal to her and nobody expected her to have any evil deeds in mind.

That one is funny:

1400 do si eines nahtes | bi dem chvenige lach mit armen vmbvangen | het er si als er pflach di edeln vrowen trivten | si was im also sin lip do gedahte ir finde | daz vil herliche wip

Da sie eines Nachts (weird how this is or sounds masculine, but it still makes sense in modern German) bei dem König lag, hat er sie mit Armen umfangen, so, wie er es pflegte die edle Dame zu lieben. Sie war ihm wie sein Leib. Da gedachte ihrer Feinde das sehr herrliche Weib.

So in other words … while he was about to fuck her, she thought of her enemies.

“(weird how this is or sounds masculine, but it still makes sense in modern German)” OE did funny things with “niht” too. IIRC it did tend to be masculine in adverbials like this, but feminine otherwise.

Well, I mean, even Latin nox … you can tell that it was standard genus initially.

It must have fallen into the subcategory we call feminine by some kind of analogy.

You still say des Nachts in modern German …

I love that hint.

Thank you, Sarah.

* Daniel Scholten*, a great scholar, gave me the following answer to this: This is the adverbialisation ending -s, detached from the adverbial genitive (especially of time), as in: anfangs, eingangs, weiters (Ostbairisch), Sommers wie Winters, des Tages, tagsüber. It is probably in the nature of the lexicon that there are not more feminines among them. Many masculine nouns first appeared in this adverbial group due to the structure of the word meanings. Feminines such as ‘Zeit’ do not fit well lexically. They tend to occur in the temporal accusative: Zeit seines Lebens. And because they were primarily masculine nouns, their genitive ending has become absolute. In other languages, such as Latin, you can find feminine endings. The ‘midweek’ (media hebdomas) probably became masculine due to the systemic constraints of the other days of the week rather than because of ‘mittwochs’. His websites can be found under https://www.belleslettres.eu or https://www.danielscholten.com

For some reason, I like genitive adverbials.

Everybody does.

They were in massive use in Mediaeval High German, but declined in Modern High German.

People use them in Modern High German to sound intelligent. Even though they aren’t.

I try to translate those lines in a way that resembles the modern expressions we know while staying as true to the Mediaeval German as possible.

Normally, you would write “Da dachte sie in ihre Feinde” in current German.

You have “einer Sache gedenken” in modern German, but it’s a bit of a frozen expression … it still has that old perfective ge- prefix … and it kind of means “to think of someone” in connection with “to pay tribute to them/that”.

So you can gedenken of war heroes. Or possibly of the Weimarer Reichsverfassung. Kriemhild’s gedenken here wouldn’t actually work in Modern German anymore.

I like how somebody liked my question about “des Nachts” …

Next thing she does is to ask him if he could invite her relatives over as she allegedly feels so lonely without them. He agrees, and she asks him to send out messengers to invite them to his court.

Si sprach cen boten beiden nv dienet michel gvt daz ir minen willen vil gvetlichen tvt vnd saget swaz ich enbiete heim in vnser lant ich mache ivch gvtes riche vnt gip iv herlich gewant

1412 Vnde swaz ir miner frivnde immer mvget gesehen ze Wormez bi dem Rine den svlt ir niht veriehen daz ir noch nie gesæhet betrvebet minen mvt vnt saget minen dienest den helden chvene vnde gvt

Sie sprach zu den beiden Boten: “Nun dienet michel (cf. magnus, megas) gut, auf dass ihr meinen Willen sehr gütlich tut. Und sagt, was ich entbiete, heim in unser Land. (I guess that means ‘and return the answer to me’) Ich mache euch sehr reich, und gebe euch gutes Gewand. (Gewand = clothing nowadays, but could even mean armour).

Und was ihr meiner Freunde auch immer möget sehen zu Wormse an dem Rheine, denen sollt ihr nicht verrichten (whatever of my friends you may see, don’t tell them), dass ihr noch nie gesehen habt betrübet meinen Mut (that you have ever seen me pissed off) Und sagt meinen Dienst (meine Ergebenheit) den kühnen und guten Rittern (~and thank them).

She makes sure to tell them that her brothers should come as well … and that they shouldn’t forget to tell Hagen of Tronje to come:

Sagt ovch miner mvter di ere di ich han vnd ob von Tronege Hagene welle dort bestan wer si danne sold wisen dvrch <div> lant dem sint di wege von chinde her cen Hivnen wol bechant

Sagt (Berichtet) auch meiner Mutter die Ehre, die ich habe; Und wenn Hagen von Tronje dort bestehen (bleiben) wolle, wer sie dann durch das Land weisen soll (and if Hagen wants to stay there, who is to lead her through the land?). Dem sind die Wege von Kinde, her zu den Hunnen wohl bekannt. (He knows the ways to the Hungarians well since his childhood — Hagen had been a Hungarian hostage in his childhood.)

von Kinde = a puero I wonder if the German phrase is a calque from Latin or if it developed independently.

Oh, that Latin expression didn’t even come to my mind. It makes enough sense in German already. The modern idiomatic expression is “Von Kindesbeinen an” — “from childbones (onward)”. That must be a rather old expression, though, if it has Beine in the meaning of bones (rather than legs).

Unless it literally means legs … that would make it less impressive.

That’s why I wondered if it was idiomatic German or an excessively literal translation from English.

German doesn’t have any problems with treating adverbs like nouns .. to an extent where it becomes ridiculous.

The use of “heute” as a noun isn’t actually what made me suspicious. It was the “das war es” part. Until now, I hadn’t come across the “that is/was it” construction in any language other than English.

Das war’s is very idiomatic.

Das ist es, too, but it would have a different meaning.

Would it mean “that’s it” in the sense “that’s right”?

Yes.

Usually in a rather emphatic way.

The messengers that Etzel sends to the Rhine are called Werbel and Schwemmel.

That makes them sound like characters from Duck Tales.

All her brothers like the idea of seeing their sister again, as does her mother … only Hagen smells the bait.

Not sure if I understand this:

daz er wol moehte riten | in eceln lant daz rieten im di besten | di er da vnder vant ane hagen eine | dem was ez grimme leit er sprach zem kvenige tovgen | ir habt iv selben widerseit

Dass er wohl möchte reiten in Etzels Land, das rieten ihm die besten, die er darunter fand. (Er=Günther … so his advisors told him to go to Hungary) Ohne Hagen als einzigen (all except Hagen), dem war es grimmes Leid, er sprach zum König heimlich (touge again … wtf is that word): Ihr habt euch selbst widersprochen (you contradicted yourself.)

1459 nv ist iv doch gewizen | waz wir haben getan wir mvegen immer sorge | zv criemhilde han wand ich slvch ze tode | ir man mit miner hant wie getorste wir riten | in daz eceln lant

Nun ist euch doch gewiss, was wir haben getan, wir mögen immer Sorge zu Kriemhilde haben (you know what we did … we should always be afraid of Kriemhild). Weil ich zu Tode schlug ihren Mann mit meiner Hand, Wie trauten wir uns (How durst we) zu reiten in das Land Etzels.

I like want (or spelt ‘wand’ here), which means “because” … it doesn’t exist in German, anymore, but I know it from Dutch … where it means “because”.

1460 do sprach der kvnech riche | min swester lie den zorn mit chvsse minnecliche | si hat vf vns verchorn daz wir ir ie getaten | e si von hinnen reit ez en si et hagen | danne iv einem widerseit

Da sprach der reiche (mächtige) König (this is one of the many examples where MHG still places the adjective behind the noun): “Meine Schwester ließ den Zorn (she let her anger go) mit Kusse minnelich (with her remarriage?!). Sie hat uns verkoren (verkiesen = verzeihen; kiesen doesn’t really exist anymore in Modern German except in some frozen expressions … so “she forgave us”) das, was wir ihr je antaten, eh sie von hinnen ritt (before she rode away). Es müsste sie nur, Hagen, dann (mit) euch im Widerstreit sein. (“She must only with you, Hagen, be in conflict.”)

et or eht also exists in Anglo-Saxon, meaning “possession”. The word “ought” comes from it.

It’s funny that Günther thinks she has forgiven him … and that if there is anyone to be afraid, it should be Hagen … but he should come along anyway

Hagen warns him again:

1461 nv lat ivch niht betragen | sprach hagene swes si iehen di boten von den hivnen | welt ir criemhilde sehen ir mvegt da verliesen | di ere vnd ovch den lip ia ist vil lanchraeche | des kvenech eceln wip

“Nun lasst euch nicht betrügen”, sprach Hagen, “wessen (=von dem, was) sie sagen die Boten von den Hunnen. Wollt ihr Kriemhild sehen, dann mögt ihr ihr da verlieren die Ehre und auch den Leib (she’s gonna fucking kill you) Ja, groß ist die Langräche (the long hate) des Königs Etzels Weib”.

He knows what he’s talking about. That woman is pissed off as fuck.

Then the cook gets to speak and he warns them … of all people, why the fucking cook?

Anyway, what they ultimately decide on is to go there and take with them 1000 men at arms.

Then they get to the Danube and prepare to ship over … but Hagen finds a bunch of what you could nymphs there bathing.

And he takes away the clothes that they had dropped.

That’s not very gentleman-like.

They ask him to give them back their clothes and promise him to predict the future of his journey if he does so, telling him he’s on a wonderful journey. That makes him give them back their clothes, whereupon they start speaking the actual truth:

1539 do sprach daz ander merewip | div hiez sigelint ich wil dich warnen hagen | daz aldrianes chint dvrh der waete liebe | hat min mvome dir gelogen chvemestv hin cen hivnen | so bistv sere betrogen

Da sprach das andere Meeresweib, die hieß Sieglinde: “Ich will dich warnen Hagen, Adrianes Kind! Aus große Liebe hat meine Mume dir gelogen. (My aunt lied to you out of great love? I don’t really understand that. I think she lied to him to get her clothes back) Kömmest du hin zu den Hunnen, so bist du sehr betrogen.”

1540 ia soltv cheren widere | daz ist dir an der zit wand ir helde chvene | also geladet sit daz ir sterben mvezet | in eceln lant swelhe dar geritent | di habent den tot an der hant “

Ja, du sollst wieder umkehren, das ist dir an der Zeit (there’s still time to turn around), weil ihr kühnen Helden, eingeladen seid, dass ihr sterben müsst (invitati estis, ut moriamini) in Etzels Land. Welche dahin reiten, die haben den Tod an der Hand.”

Hagen tells her that she’s a lying dog-faced pony soldier. There’s no chance they could all die there.

So she replies:

do sprach aber div eine | ez mvz also wesen daz iwer deheiner | chan da niht genesen niwan des chveneges kappelan | daz ist vns wol bechant der chvemet gesvnt widere | in daz gventheres lant

Da sprach aber die eine: “Dann muss es so sein, dass euer irgendjemand da nicht genesen kann, (that’s a bit weird. genesen means “to heal” in Modern German. But in MHG it can also mean “to stay alive”. So she tells him, go for it, but nobody will stay alive … except) außer der Kaplan des Königs, das ist uns wohl bekannt: Der kömmet gesund wieder in Günthers Land.”

So Hagen had a great idea … after ferrying over his 1000 knights and their 9000 servants, he just decided to throw the chaplain into the river to prove their prophecy wrong.

1574 do er si wol gesvnde | brahte veber den flvt do gedahte vremder maere | der snelle degen gvt div im e da sageten | div wilden merwip des het des chvneges kapelan | nach verlorn sinen lip

Da er sie wohl-gesund über die Flut gebracht hatte, da gedachte fremder Märem der schnelle Degen gut, die ihm eh da sagten die wilden Meerweiber. Dessen hat des Königs Kaplan später seinen Leib verloren.

I don’t know if it shouldn’t be hätte in the last sentence …

1576 er swang in vz dem shiffe | darzv wart im gach do rieffen ir genvge | nv vaha herre vach giselher der ivnge | zvernen erz began ern wold iz doh niht lazzen | ir deheinen vnderstan

Er schwang ihn aus dem Schiffe, dazu wurde ihm Gang (=dazu eilte er. He suddenly threw him off the boat). Da riefen ihrer genügend: <I don’t know what to make of this. I guess they shouted something like “woe!”> Giselherr der junge begann erst zu zürnen, doch wollte er es nicht zulassen, dass ihrer irgendjemand es verhindert.

Again a bit weird. But Hagen essentially went ahead and did not let anyone interrupt him.

So Hagen threw him off the boat in the middle of the river, and that chaplain couldn’t even swim.

As you might imagine, the chaplain was saved by the hand of God.

1616 Da stund der arme prister vnd schawet sein gewant da bey sach wol Hagen daz er wär vngewant daz im e da sagte dy weisen merweip er gedacht diser degen muß verlisn den leip

Da stand der arme Priester und beschaut sein Gewand. Dabei sah Hagen wohl, dass er ungewankt war (dass er nicht wankte, that he was unharmed), was ihm eh (zuvor) da sagte das weise Meerweib. Er dachte, dieser Degen muss verlieren den Leib.

So Hagen saw him unscathed and thought “ok, we’re fucked.”

I should mention that the ferryman refused to ferry over possible enemies of his king Gelfrat … so Hagen cut off his head and ferried his men over himself. As a result, they are ambushed by Gelfrat and his brother Else when they make it to the other side of the Danube.

A fight breaks out between Gelfrat and Hagen and their respective brothers Else and Dankwart. Hagen is about to get owned by Gelfrat, but Dankwart comes in from the side:

1613 do begonde er rveffen | danchwarten an hilf mir lieber brvder | ia hat mich bestan ein helt cen sinen handen | dern lat mich niht genesen do sprach der chven danchwart | des sol ich sheidaer wesen

1614 der helt do spranch dar naher | vnd slvch im einen slach mit einem sharffen waffen | davon er tot gelach else wolde gerne | rechen do den man er vnd sin gesinde | schieden shedeliche dan

Da begann er (Hagen) Dankwart anzurufen: “Hilf mir, lieber Bruder, ja, mich hat bestanden (angegriffen, attacked) ein Held zu seinen Händen, der lässt mich nicht genesen (he doesn’t let me be alive)”. Da sprach der kühne Dankwart: “Dessen soll ich Scheider (Schiedsrichter, referee, arbiter) sein!”

Der Held sprang näher und schlug ihm einen Schlag (“he struck him a strike” … really? ah well) mit einer scharfen Waffe, davon lag er tot. Else wollte gerne den Mann rächen; er und sein Gesinde schieden schädlich dann.

So what happened was that Else got wounded, a lot of his men got slain by Günther’s men, and they had to retreat and the attack was repelled.

Then they come to Bechelaren, which is Pöchlarn. That’s in the middle of today’s Austria.

I had to use the texts of the manuscripts for the last few chapters, which annoyed me a bit. I’m back at the more standardised text, now that they are at Rüdiger von Bechlaren’s court.

Rüdiger was also the messenger whom Etzel had sent to court Kriemhild, and it was partly because of his mild demeanour that Kriemhild’s brothers agreed that she should marry him.

But as I said, she’s pissed off that they married her to a heathen. Kinda fits with what you brought up.

They also engage Geiselher with Rüdiger’s daughter.

They keep calling him young Geiselher, probably because he’s the youngest of the 3 brothers … but I wonder … I mean, I think he’s older than Kriemhild, or at best a bit younger. It took her 9 years to conceive a child from Siegfried, then he was killed and she mourned for 13 years. Then she married Etzel and another 13 years went by. That’s 35 years all by itself. That guy would at least be in his 40s, if not older … and they hadn’t found a wife for him?

Well, ok … Odysseus was gone for 20 years as well. I guess time doesn’t play much of a role in epics. And they fixed the whole thing by Athene just making both of them 20 years younger again.

You know, given that these are supposed to be cornerstones of world literature and history, some parts in there are pretty weak.

No kidding.

No.

1667 Diu junge marcgrâvinne diu nam bî der hant 1667 Gîselher den recken von Burgonden lant. alsam tet ouch ir muoter Gúnther den küenen man. si giengen mit den helden vil harte vroelîche dan.

Die junge Markgräfin, die nahm bei der Hand Geiselher den Recken von dem Burgunderland. All the same did auch ihre Mutter Günther den kühnen Mann. Sie gingen mit den Helden sehr fröhlich dann.

The title Graf actually does come from graphein (γράφειν), as you would suspect. A Graf was initially a a clerk at court who knew how to read and write.

Come to think of it, there’s at least one written genre where we haven’t gotten any better at that kind of thing: comic books. Many characters there go on for decades without ever aging. And, outside of the written word, it’s the same with cartoons.

True … that’s a bit different, though. And X-Men actually broke with that convention.

Reading and writing were initially considered rubbish jobs … like working for the rubbish collection. And being called a scribe was considered to be an insult at some point. I think Charlemagne barely managed to write his own name at the end of his life … and he was proud of that achievement.

1668 Der wirt gie bî Gêrnôte in einen wîten sal. 1668 ritter unde frouwen gesâzen dâ zetal. dô hiez man balde schenken den gesten guoten wîn. jane dórften nimmer helde baz gehándélet sîn.

Der Wirt ging bei (an der Seite von) Gernot in einen weiten Saal. Ritter und Damen saßen da zu Tal (they sat down there). Da hieß ( = iussit) man bald (ein)schenken den Gästen guten Wein. Ja nicht durften niemals Helden besser behandelt sein. (Another one of those double negations — never ever may have heros been treated better)

Reminds me of how German prefers ative verbs in such infinitive constructions where Latn prefers the passive. it actually says “iussum est vinum hospitibus ministrari”.

1669 Mit lieben ougen blicken wart gesehen an 1669 diu Rüedegêres tochter; diu was sô wol getân. jâ trûtes in den sinnen vil manec ritter guot. daz kunde ouch si verdienen: si was vil hôhé gemuot.

Mit lieben Blicken der Augen wurde angesehen die Tochter Rüdigers; die war so wohl gebaut (she was very pretty). Ja Trautes in den Sinnen (war bei) very many guten Rittern. Das konnte sie auch verdienen (she deserved the looks): Sie war von hohem Gemüt.

Hochmut is something negative in German these days. It means superbia. But seeing as muot frequently also refers to the mind in Middle High German, I guess it means “illa fuit magna mente”.

1670 Si gedâhten swes si wolden: des enmóhte aber níht geschehen. 1670 hín und hér wíderé wart dâ vil gesehen an mägede und an frouwen, der saz dâ genuoc. der edele videlære dem wirte holden willen truoc.

Sie dachten an das, was sie wollten (sie gedachten, wessen sie wollten would also be possible in German): das vermochte aber nicht zu geschehen. Hin und her wurde da wieder und wieder viel gesehen an Mägden und an Frauen, derer saß da genug. Der edle Fiedler trug dem Wirte holden Willen.

That’s another episode of a lot of men having a hard on because so many beautiful women are around.

Wirt usually is a restaurant owner in Modern German, but in these texts, it’s always the dominus who receives people as his guests.

Anyway, they keep on bantering, and eventually they come up with the idea that Geiselher should marry Rüdigers daughter Gotelinde.

1678 “Nu sol mîn herre Gîselher nemen doch ein wîp: 1678 ez ist sô hôher mâge der marcgrâvinne lîp, daz wir ir gerne dienten, ich unde sîne man, und soldes under krône dâ zen Búrgónden gân.”

1679 Diu rede Rüedegêren dûhte harte guot 1679 und ouch Gotelinde: jâ freutes in den muot.

That’s what Gernot suggests:

Nun soll mein Herr Geiselher doch ein Weib nehmen: Es ist von so hoher Verwandschaft der Markgräfin Leib (it is of such high value to be related to the Markgräfin, that), dass wir ihr gerne dienten, ich und seine (Günthers? I guess) Männer, sollte sie unter der Krone da zu Burgunde gehen (if she should be queen). Die Rede deuchte Rüdiger sehr gut und auch Gotelinde: ja, sie freute sich in ihrem Gemüt.

sît truogen an die helde daz si ze wîbe nam Gîselher der edele, als ez wol künege gezam.

Sofort trugen es an die Helden, da sie zum Weibe nehme Geiselher der Edle, wie es wohl Königen geziemt.

So they got engaged then and there, und the pressure of their relatives. Deuchen has kind of survived as a frozen expression btw. “Mich deucht” is like “Methinks” … so it’s kinda like “the speech bethought/enthought Rüdiger very well”.

And actually, they married before they went on.

Part 4:

[embed]Nibelungenlied Chat Protocols Revealed — Pt 4 In this part, we will look at the arrival of the Burgundians at Etzel’s and Kriemhild’s court, the animosities between…medium.com